Lord Deependra Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 OH .. here's a solution I like. I you issue a warp order on a WG, and the end terminus is not consturcted, the warp will open and your ships can enter .. only to go into oblivion as there is no exit point. That's the code I want to see. I'm not too keen on that idea. All you have to do is make one little error on your turn and you obliterate your own fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir smeg Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 It would be especially bad when you had a nice little conv going between two homeworlds, nothing worse then the cargo fleet going missing with all those really critical and expensive conponents that your new war fleet is waiting on. Sir Smeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakarissa Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. [unquote] How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotor911 Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 could the class of the warp point be linked to the distance they allow to cross, the higher the class the longer the distance? Hence 2 E would be "further" than 5 A? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TErnest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. [unquote] How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Bottom line: you can't know. You will have to set up a Universal Gate and test it in order to get a feel for what losses can be expected. And the first few UGs you establish may have little to no relevance in estimating the losses for your next one. (Unless it is in the same system.) Oh, you can guess. A star system that is an H jump away will tend to be further away than one through an A warp point. A star system that is 20 warps away will tend to be further away than one that is just one jump away. But these methods are unreliable. There is no way in the game system for us to accurately measure the real distance between two stars. In fact, the measured losses between any two UGs is the first empirical method we have to even estimate such distances. Sol's nearest neighbor is, if I recall, Alpha Centauri. Just a few lightyears. For all we know, it could take 18 jumps, including three Fs and a G warp point, to get there from here. TErnest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breoghan Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Perhaps I'm thinking too simplistically here (and I am no where near setting up my own UGs, I'll admit up front) - but how about just setting up the link and then sending 100 (anything cheap) through - I wouldn't expect any penalty to differentiate between the good stuff and anything else. Any losses will equal % losses to be expected. I reckon if you can afford the UGs in the first place, you can afford to experiment to a degree. After all, there's no rule that says all the info has to be laid out in fine detail by the GM to make everyone's life too easy, is there! (Naturally, I'd prefer you guys to work out the losses and save me the pain later, so I'm definitely interested in this line of discussion ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President James Tiberius Kirk Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Perhaps I'm thinking too simplistically here (and I am no where near setting up my own UGs, I'll admit up front) - but how about just setting up the link and then sending 100 (anything cheap) through - I wouldn't expect any penalty to differentiate between the good stuff and anything else. Any losses will equal % losses to be expected. I reckon if you can afford the UGs in the first place, you can afford to experiment to a degree. After all, there's no rule that says all the info has to be laid out in fine detail by the GM to make everyone's life too easy, is there! (Naturally, I'd prefer you guys to work out the losses and save me the pain later, so I'm definitely interested in this line of discussion ). Sounds like a good use for all those Primitive Artworks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TErnest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Sounds like a good use for all those Primitive Artworks. EXCELLENT! Just keep sending them through repeatedly, until there are none left! TErnest (Can you tell that what I really want to see in the game is a Mk I Incinerator?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Actually, I've been thinking more about how this can help map the stars. I seem to remember somewhere Pete once saying that he couldn't tell us the distance between the stars as we could use that to figure out the pattern (then again it's been many years and I may be losing my memory here). Anyway, if we start building gates, and then send things through to test them, I'm certain a pattern will emerge. The data points will lead to deriving the likely equation behind loss by distance. And then we can figure out how far each star is from another (and compare that to various WP's and such). Yep, get the distances between a few stars and we can determine if the mapping is 3-D or 2-D, start recording them to our own coordinate system, place them in mapping programs. Hmmmm.... lots of possibilities here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Actually, I've been thinking more about how this can help map the stars. I seem to remember somewhere Pete once saying that he couldn't tell us the distance between the stars as we could use that to figure out the pattern (then again it's been many years and I may be losing my memory here). Anyway, if we start building gates, and then send things through to test them, I'm certain a pattern will emerge. The data points will lead to deriving the likely equation behind loss by distance. And then we can figure out how far each star is from another (and compare that to various WP's and such). Yep, get the distances between a few stars and we can determine if the mapping is 3-D or 2-D, start recording them to our own coordinate system, place them in mapping programs. Hmmmm.... lots of possibilities here. Sounds like a plan. And to amass data faster, you should post the full pre-requisites of gate technology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Actually, I've been thinking more about how this can help map the stars. I seem to remember somewhere Pete once saying that he couldn't tell us the distance between the stars as we could use that to figure out the pattern (then again it's been many years and I may be losing my memory here). Anyway, if we start building gates, and then send things through to test them, I'm certain a pattern will emerge. The data points will lead to deriving the likely equation behind loss by distance. And then we can figure out how far each star is from another (and compare that to various WP's and such). Yep, get the distances between a few stars and we can determine if the mapping is 3-D or 2-D, start recording them to our own coordinate system, place them in mapping programs. Hmmmm.... lots of possibilities here. Sounds like a plan. And to amass data faster, you should post the full pre-requisites of gate technology No problem with that. I like sharing tech like this: Universal Gate Type: Installation Requires: Mk I Universal Gate Cost to build: 5,000,000 Advanced Construction Material; 1 Population Consumes: 2,000,000 Power per turn Allows transfers to other Population Groups in the same or different star systems that also possess a Universal Gate. Power consumption is massive and required whether or not the Gate is actually used to transfer goods. A standard TR order is used to trigger a Gate transfer. Some cargo may be lost in transit, with the risk being directly related to the level of advancement in UG technology and the distance between the gates. Mk I Universal Gate Type: Colonial Berthing Requires: Mk I Planetary Cargo Gate, Mk III Personnel Transporter Cost to Build: Horizon Technology Universal Gate technology represents a significant advance in matter destruction and recreation. Completion of this technology allows for the construction of the Universal Gate installation, which functions almost identically to the Transportation Center…..but between different planets. There are some limitations and risks, however. A Universal Gate must exist on both planets and be under the control of the same empire to function. Additionally, your scientists are only beginning to understand the nature of matter transmission and have a long way to go to fully understand the complex physics involved. Fairly often a portion of cargo sent from one gate to another is lost. It does not fail to dematerialize, but it never appears at the destination. It just…vanishes. Finally, UG's soak up a monumental amount of power just to maintain the interworld link. The power is required whether or not any cargo is sent through the gate. It should be noted that Universal Gates can exist on worlds in different star systems, potentially making this a scientific advance of epic scope. Your scientists do indicate that the distance between the stars involved does have an effect on the chances of losing cargo, and that it is not a straight line formula for cargo loss…it gets harsh very quickly as distance increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodookus Posted August 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Actually, I've been thinking more about how this can help map the stars. I seem to remember somewhere Pete once saying that he couldn't tell us the distance between the stars as we could use that to figure out the pattern (then again it's been many years and I may be losing my memory here). Anyway, if we start building gates, and then send things through to test them, I'm certain a pattern will emerge. The data points will lead to deriving the likely equation behind loss by distance. And then we can figure out how far each star is from another (and compare that to various WP's and such). Yep, get the distances between a few stars and we can determine if the mapping is 3-D or 2-D, start recording them to our own coordinate system, place them in mapping programs. Hmmmm.... lots of possibilities here. WKE I think you are right. If enough gates could be set up and if enough transfers could be made then no doubt we should be able to collectively calculate the relative nearness of one star to another. But once the enormous task has been completed and thousands of orders have been expended, what practical application does it have? Sure it would be cool to know whether my HW star is near your HW star, or whether the galaxy structure is 2D or 3D. But to what end? You can't take your ships and start moving toward the next star over. The game system is set up so that travel between stars is only accomplished through the use of warp points/wormholes. Unless there is some research breakthrough out there that not only lets an empire travel by using (x,y) or (x,y,z) coordinates (similar to the old SNII days), AND this same breakthrough opens up a whole new set of orders in the SN turn entry system to allow such movement, this knowledge has little practical value. Or am I missing a practical application of this information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I've been pondering the meaning of something Pete put on the turn results a couple weeks back about the Univseral Gates. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. How in the heck can we figure out the raw distance between star? I'm in the planning stages of setting up my first out-system colony and was planning on using a Universal Gate to facilitate that. The colony site is only one jump from the HW. I'm assuming that is a short 'raw distance' but how can I tell for sure? Sakarissa The Circle Actually, I've been thinking more about how this can help map the stars. I seem to remember somewhere Pete once saying that he couldn't tell us the distance between the stars as we could use that to figure out the pattern (then again it's been many years and I may be losing my memory here). Anyway, if we start building gates, and then send things through to test them, I'm certain a pattern will emerge. The data points will lead to deriving the likely equation behind loss by distance. And then we can figure out how far each star is from another (and compare that to various WP's and such). Yep, get the distances between a few stars and we can determine if the mapping is 3-D or 2-D, start recording them to our own coordinate system, place them in mapping programs. Hmmmm.... lots of possibilities here. Sounds like a plan. And to amass data faster, you should post the full pre-requisites of gate technology No problem with that. I like sharing tech like this: Universal Gate Type: Installation Requires: Mk I Universal Gate Cost to build: 5,000,000 Advanced Construction Material; 1 Population Consumes: 2,000,000 Power per turn Allows transfers to other Population Groups in the same or different star systems that also possess a Universal Gate. Power consumption is massive and required whether or not the Gate is actually used to transfer goods. A standard TR order is used to trigger a Gate transfer. Some cargo may be lost in transit, with the risk being directly related to the level of advancement in UG technology and the distance between the gates. Mk I Universal Gate Type: Colonial Berthing Requires: Mk I Planetary Cargo Gate, Mk III Personnel Transporter Cost to Build: Horizon Technology Universal Gate technology represents a significant advance in matter destruction and recreation. Completion of this technology allows for the construction of the Universal Gate installation, which functions almost identically to the Transportation Center…..but between different planets. There are some limitations and risks, however. A Universal Gate must exist on both planets and be under the control of the same empire to function. Additionally, your scientists are only beginning to understand the nature of matter transmission and have a long way to go to fully understand the complex physics involved. Fairly often a portion of cargo sent from one gate to another is lost. It does not fail to dematerialize, but it never appears at the destination. It just…vanishes. Finally, UG's soak up a monumental amount of power just to maintain the interworld link. The power is required whether or not any cargo is sent through the gate. It should be noted that Universal Gates can exist on worlds in different star systems, potentially making this a scientific advance of epic scope. Your scientists do indicate that the distance between the stars involved does have an effect on the chances of losing cargo, and that it is not a straight line formula for cargo loss…it gets harsh very quickly as distance increases. Much appreciated. Now, what technology should I ask for next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 The universe is three dimensional. The true distance is the straight line distance between two stars using the X,Y,Z coordinates. WP categories and the number of warps have no bearing on actual distance. Good luck in mapping the universe with Universal Gate data. Losses tend to be rather small at first, but can get quite high. So the empire that would rather not lose 5, 10 15% or more of a shipment may have to continue to move stuff around using freighters. they have no losses and are really quite predictable. Tech is easy to get and they are much cheaper to build. Fuel infrastructure is a bit of a pain, but once in place you can forget about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 The universe is three dimensional. The true distance is the straight line distance between two stars using the X,Y,Z coordinates. WP categories and the number of warps have no bearing on actual distance. Good luck in mapping the universe with Universal Gate data. Losses tend to be rather small at first, but can get quite high. So the empire that would rather not lose 5, 10 15% or more of a shipment may have to continue to move stuff around using freighters. they have no losses and are really quite predictable. Tech is easy to get and they are much cheaper to build. Fuel infrastructure is a bit of a pain, but once in place you can forget about it. One downside of freighters is they can help an enemy find your colonies and your home world and can be stopped by blockades. Everything has a trade-off :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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