Guest Spongebob Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I am no longer in this game (was I even in it?) anyway; but It saddens me that players will do almost anything to win the game but I also believe in playing to the rules. I think the FP DW tactic is a poor choice in this game but its also valid in the rules. I always try to stay in the black but have on occasion gone into the Red, just to get that extra unit that could make the difference. Its a choice and one I can live with. If someone succeeds in FP then DW again well that stops me ever going into the Red again. TAs can support your treasury. If its used to force a player out then it leave a bitter taste and I would rather fight a player to death than a computer controlled nation, better to goad. I apologise for talking sense, normal chaos will resume soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Are Irish! Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 We'll see... DW-FP is there, i can't see Lowlands going anywhere else but to Spain again so i expect to see the cycle completed, but if he suddenly decides to wage war on me, that's fine. I don’t like someone taking the moral high ground when he does not deserve it. So I did some digging, and would like to present to you Mickey as the judge and expert on DW-FP-BPA matters the following facts and evidence. It’s about game 80. A game the current block I’m in played and in which Germany was one of the members. In that game Predator played Portugal, in a (winning) team with Algeria, Spain, Tunisia and the United States. Check: http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=2096&p=48745 On turn 33 Predator learns Germany has gone bankrupt http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1573&p=38809 Later he hints at his plans: http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1573&p=38894 These are the relevant messages from the Political activities and general intelligence section of Germanies turnsheets. I’ll let them speak for themselves. 34 Algeria has declared war on your nation Tunisia has declared war on your nation Spain has forced peace upon your nation United States has declared war on your nation 35 United States has forced peace upon your nation 36 Iceland has forced peace upon your nation United States has broken its political agreement with your nation Algeria has forced peace upon your nation 37 Tunisia has forced peace upon your nation Great Britain has forced peace upon your nation United States has declared war on your nation 38 Great Britain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation United States has forced peace upon your nation 39 Great Britain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation 40 Portugal has declared war on your nation 41 Tunisia has broken its political agreement with your nation Spain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation Portugal has forced peace upon your nation Portugal has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation 42 Spain has broken its political agreement with your nation 43 Tunisia has declared war on your nation Portugal has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation 44 Portugal has broken its political agreement with your nation United States has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation 45 Spain has declared war on your nation Spain has conquered Mannheim ( 4 points of national morale were lost) Spain has conquered Saarbrucken ( 6 points of national morale were lost) Spain has conquered Freiburg ( 2 points of national morale were lost) Spain has conquered Goppingen ( 5 points of national morale were lost) Portugal has declared war on your nation 46 Algeria has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation Spain has conquered Augsburg ( 3 points of national morale were lost) Spain has forced peace upon your nation United States has broken its political agreement with your nation 47 Portugal has forced peace upon your nation Sweden has forced peace upon your nation 48 - 49 Algeria has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation 50 - 51 Portugal has broken its political agreement with your nation 52 - 53 United States has declared war on your nation Algeria has broken its political agreement with your nation Algeria has declared war on your nation 54 Spain has declared war on your nation Spain has conquered xAugsburg (1 point of national morale was lost) Spain has conquered xFreiburg (1 point of national morale was lost) 55/56/57 - 58 Portugal has declared war on your nation 59/60/61/62 - 67 Portugal has forced peace upon your nation Well Pred...how do you plea ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I just spent an hour typing and lost it all errr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Are Irish! Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I just spent an hour typing and lost it all errr Must be your karma ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 game 80--spain and I were fighting the Austria/hungary alliance...we were at the swiss border fighting Austria for switz...Austria was very powerful and spain and myself were engaged in trench warfare with him...don't remember who mannstein was with or how we found out he was neg....quite simply Germany was an overspender at his own admission....we forced peace so we could fight Austria...we probably fought over switz with Austria for like 40 turns..to mannsteins credit he stayed in the game to learn how to play...we used fp as it was intended in the rules to be used to stop an out of control spending country from entering in the war.......force peace was used here as the rules intended game 82--we are winning this game when the other major alliance started to target low pop cities with no military targets... and targeted morale by attacking pop with sb and cb orders...they could take an 800 morale country to below 0 in a couple of turns and force them out of the game...russ was forced to end the game...fp was used not as the rules intended game 91--my ally c Russia was jumped on early by turkey, persia, and s Russia...because of lost territory his morale goes neg even though he had a pos treasury..the group he was fighting force peace to get him to drop because they couldn't beat him 3 on 1..when he wouldn't drop they did...fp not used as rules intended game 93---spain takes forever to conquer Portugal and then enters into war with the French group...Czech becomes scared of our group and rallies your group to his side as well as the Rumanian Greece alliance...suddenly spain finds himself at war with more countries than his morale can support but is still positive though barely...suddenly U.S. ,Britain, and Canada invade taking a lot of Portugal and northern spain driving morale lower..though spain has a low treasury he is forced to build units to defend his country making his treasury go neg and dropping morale below 0...Algeria and morocco treasuries not in position to help at time so for two turns we both don't build anything so we can get spain pos again...the turn U.S. forces peace both the Spanish morale and treasury would have been positive again...this is the first game ever the Spanish player has ever went neg and only for three turns.. U.S. forces peace and Canada though he didn't fp he cedes the province of a major airbase to U.S. to ground the Spanish aircraft and force him out of the game...now the Canadian troops can run around with no worries. same turn lowlands airdrops, fp, and dw again...now because of the timing I gave lowlands benefit of doubt because he may not have been privy to the Spanish morale plight and his reason for doing so made military sense and I have even apologized for attacking his character... game 80 the fp was used to keep a country out of the war that went crazy overspending as the german player even admitted too...game 82 fp was clearly misused to get strong countries out of the game....game 91 and 93 the fp was used clearly to defeat a country while fighting inside that country to force them out when it couldn't be done militarily.. to my recollection game 80 was the only game I used the order and it was used as the rules intended, to keep an overspending country at bay who I had no intention of invading...games 82,91, and 93 in my opinion it was used offensively to force players out that couldn't be beat militarily... I have moved on ..spain is dead...you won but not on the battlefield... I believe playing by the rules and not finding loopholes within the rules to force people out of the game that don't deserve it...to me it is a matter of gamesmanship...I am not one to do anything to win..i have lost more games than I won...I love victory and just want the game not to be ruined by those that would do anything to win... I will apologize again to the lowlands player ...Canada and U.S. on the other hand could have solved the problem with the Spanish bombers by simply putting up 50 fighters over their troops the Spanish had no or few escorts...fp and ceding the province of the Spanish airbase to a player who has fp is a cheap move in my opinion ..why? cause they couldn't come up with a better solution..give me a break! so you research my past to attack me...I have always tried to play within the rules as they are intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklen X Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I made a decision to not complain on this subject, since I hate poor losers. I will only say this. From the beginning of this fight, I feel the USA/Canada/GB/Ireland group has used very poor tactics. They could have easily overrun me in a few turns, but have repeated the same mistakes over and over again. It has reached a point where they were on the verge of losing, as USA has been crushed, Canada can only survive by constantly delaying until the day before me, and the Irish army is a shell of its former self. GB is in a strong position, but only because I have been ignoring them. In 20 games of Victory! this is the only time I have ever hit negative morale, and it figures it would bite me. I think the USA FP to save Castello Branco is dodgy, but I have to agree with Mickey that is is a tactical weapon of value. Canada ceding the province of Huesca to USA is absolutely what I would expect from a player whose only idea of strategy is to try and blind his opponent. Lowlands I have no experience with, but his FP after an air assault is rather crappy also. Most people would drop at this point, but I am not most people. I recognize that being completely craven, my opponents will not fight me, and must try gamey tactics to drive me from the game, but it will not be so easy for you. For the record, I have never issued a FP order on an active player, nor would I ever do so. I will always share my battle reports with an enemy if they are unable to receive them. I do this because I consider those to be glitches in an otherwise great game, and I want to have a competitive fight and win on merit, not on technicalities. To each his own. I am not going to get into a pissing match on this, I stated my opinion, and will drop the matter, but I am not done fighting either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 to mannsteins credit he stayed in the game to learn how to play...we used fp as it was intended in the rules to be used to stop an out of control spending country from entering in the war.......force peace was used here as the rules intended It saddens me to hear you feel the FP was meant to make sure a new player could never recover from his beginners mistake, that forcing him out of play for the entire game is what FP was put in the rules for to do. And stop trying to take me away from my lovely 999 morale! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Chaos Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Let's stick with facts shall we? Spain DECLARED war on our group (after discussing how to work out a solution how to move into Europe) You take a loan and spend on ENDLESS bombers, what's fair about endless cash? So you get your airbase isolated so half of your bombers can't fly anymore? Whose fault is that? It's a risk you were willing to take so you pay the consequences. You also did not evacuate all the turns one of our armies was in the province. I expect nothing is going to convince you but I hope the other players at least get a more accurate picture of what is actually going on. We've played fair for over 20 years, stuck to any agreements we made, we also played for fun and not too proud to acknowledge defeat when we screwed up to a better player/alliance. It's a game and I hope it will continue for much longer allthough I fear that's just wishfull thinking on my behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Pred will simply have to retake Huesca and set Mark's bombers free. But please Prof, please stop the mantra on spending too much cash on aircraft as it is IMPOSSIBLE to spend much cash on aircraft. Spain could fill the entire Iberian peninsula with only AIR factories and still would not be able to spend more than $1000 per turn on aircraft. Mark may have gone down the treasury tube because of excessive RP, building too many fixed defences, building expensive SS Panzers instead of Mech's (i know he loves those...), waited too long with slashing his SIOL/SCOL and training, those could all be contributing factors too his (slight) overspending. One factor that cannot possibly have a big impact is buying aircraft. Please see for yourself how much you are able to spend on aircraft if you don't believe me. Take out the tech sheets and a calculator and see how laughably little you can spend on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 It's a game and I hope it will continue for much longer allthough I fear that's just wishfull thinking on my behalf. I'm pretty sure it's up to just one group how much of a game it will be in Iberia now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry Mickey but you joined the evil empire... But I will throw life rafts to your sailors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Meh... with an entire empire already crumbled after my first ever real amphibious assault, i seem to have some battlefleets to spare for other operations... should you somehow find the FUEL to send ships to the Icelandic Prosperity Zone, they will receive a fitting welcome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Fuel is not so much the issue as sparing the resources... Really wish at this point in the game I had American tech... The British carrier bombers are all junk at this point in the game...no was just breaking in case I ran across an Icelandic location in france preventing my aircraft from reaching their intended destination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Pfft... i have no business in france, and apart from a few provinces around Nice, everything belongs to the Atlantics anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thors Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 game 93---spain takes forever to conquer Portugal and then enters into war with the French group...Czech becomes scared of our group and rallies your group to his side as well as the Rumanian Greece alliance That is so hilariously absurd. Perhaps you were context/literate challenged here? Scared huh? Keep rubbing your EGO; rub, rub, rub. Methinks you're very good at rubbing yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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