game 93

[Predator]

 

(..)This is about gamesmanship pure and simple and from mickeys posts and from private emails the majority feels as I do..

This is not an isolated case game 82 was terminated because of what you call fair play and many other Vic games have been ruined because of this problem... We see players circumventing the rules because they can't figure out how to overcome problems within the game... (..). If you can't beat someone fairly then either drop out or don't play don't stoop to shitty tactics

Ice up son!

 

The facts:

In turn 24 I've got 3 cities left (but still a positive cashflow..!).

I could have dropped then, but thanks to a fortunate turn of events the tide turns and I'm able to rebuild my country (+ 1 smal French city).

I decide to help my TA's in the only possible way: building an airtransport fleet.

Turn 37: with financial support of my TA's, I finally can reach the heart of Mordor. I DW Spain and conquer an undefended city. (I also give the order: SI AIR, also unfair?!)

Turn 38: I learn Spain has gone negative. I conquer another city by air. And FP (and succesfully BPA) to keep my troops save and win time to destroy more AIR factories.

 

I'm playing Vic! since 1995, I know the rules and thought knowing the spirit of the game.

I really don't get why this might be considered unfair playing and I am called a chickenshit vic-player that should drop immediately because of bad gamesmanship / playing unfair. I resent you calling me that.

 

On the other side, consider this mystery we didn't complain about although it is not stated in any rule and stalled an important attack.

Turn 37: Spain has 540 LDB in province X after an attack on it by one of my TA's.

Next turn 38: the same province has 900 LDB's?! (the CL-BFDU-route was not possible due to Spain having negative morale).

According to Russ this was because of some special case circumstance.

 

 

I will leave it by this. I will refrain from posting here again.

I will continue playing #93 till I've got nothing left (knowing it will get hot and winning is out of the question).

 

It will also be my last Vic!-game.

 

i had no problem with anything you've done until turn 38...i had no problem with your tactic of dw on spain and becoming militarily involved...it was immediately after you forced peace and then bpa and dw war again I have a problem with..to what end save your airborne div, that's nonsense we both know it, the sole purpose was to drive the Spanish morale further to keep him out of the game.

 

Canada also fp and ceded huesca to someone who had forced peace as well...so now the Spanish aircraft can't be flown out. the way the tactic was used is clear, force spain out

 

as for your special case circumstance with ldb i don't even know what that is all about and was not even aware of it...what did russ say?

 

ive said it multiple times the fp order is being used to destroy victory..any that use it in that way are selfish and are ruining the game..

fact--game 82---ended by russ because of this tactic

fact --game 91--the middle eastern group found out Portugal was negative and they all fp on him even though they aren't fighting him, 1 turn later the whole Portugal group drops, 2 turns after that one of the middle east countries gets his airbase hit by a European country and the whole middle eastern group drops after forcing peace on Portugal even though they countrolled the whole southern hemisphere

fact---game 91---c Russia being attacked by so many countries his morale goes neg even with a positive treasury and fp runs rampant because they couldn't beat him

i can go on and on with examples but whats the point in one ear out the other...russ has said he was going to raise the starting morale at the start of the game but did not hold to his word

he said the only way to fix this is the players have to police the game to keep people from abusing the flaws in the game

 

i love the game of vic and have played since 1995..im tired of seeing the game abused by people who want to win at any cost.. i apologize for calling you chicken shit but my frustration with this situation and the game managers refusal to do anything have peeked...like i said this isn't about losing spain Algeria and myself already realized that was probably going to happen and had already starting making plans to deal with it

[Lord of the Libyans]

 

i had no problem with anything you've done until turn 38...i had no problem with your tactic of dw on spain and becoming militarily involved...it was immediately after you forced peace and then bpa and dw war again I have a problem with..to what end save your airborne div, that's nonsense we both know it, the sole purpose was to drive the Spanish morale further to keep him out of the game.

 

Canada also fp and ceded huesca to someone who had forced peace as well...so now the Spanish aircraft can't be flown out. the way the tactic was used is clear, force spain out

 

as for your special case circumstance with ldb i don't even know what that is all about and was not even aware of it...what did russ say?

 

ive said it multiple times the fp order is being used to destroy victory..any that use it in that way are selfish and are ruining the game..

fact--game 82---ended by russ because of this tactic

fact --game 91--the middle eastern group found out Portugal was negative and they all fp on him even though they aren't fighting him, 1 turn later the whole Portugal group drops, 2 turns after that one of the middle east countries gets his airbase hit by a European country and the whole middle eastern group drops after forcing peace on Portugal even though they countrolled the whole southern hemisphere

fact---game 91---c Russia being attacked by so many countries his morale goes neg even with a positive treasury and fp runs rampant because they couldn't beat him

i can go on and on with examples but whats the point in one ear out the other...russ has said he was going to raise the starting morale at the start of the game but did not hold to his word

he said the only way to fix this is the players have to police the game to keep people from abusing the flaws in the game

 

i love the game of vic and have played since 1995..im tired of seeing the game abused by people who want to win at any cost.. i apologize for calling you chicken shit but my frustration with this situation and the game managers refusal to do anything have peeked...like i said this isn't about losing spain Algeria and myself already realized that was probably going to happen and had already starting making plans to deal with it

 

 

The last one.

Apologies accepted.

 

And to get the facts straight:

- I DW'd (and FP'd) only once.

- Canada didn't FP.

 

Check out the most recent World news:

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

RECENT WORLD EVENTS

 

Rumania has declared war on Persia

Morocco has conquered xGiza from Egypt

Spain has conquered xOporto from United States

Peace has been declared between Lowlands and Germany

Great Britain has conquered xLugo from Spain

Iceland has conquered xTrondheim from Norway

Iceland has conquered xAlborg from Norway

Greece has declared war on Spain

Algeria has conquered xRosetta from Egypt

Algeria has conquered xAlexandria from Egypt

United States has conquered xCastelo Branco from Spain

Czechoslovakia has declared war on Baltic States

Poland has conquered xLiepaja from Finland

Ireland has conquered xNancy from France

Southern Russia has declared war on Persia

Peace has been declared between United States and France

Czechoslovakia has conquered xMadona from Northern Russia

Czechoslovakia has conquered xVilna from Northern Russia

Peace has been declared between Tunisia and Morocco

Morocco has declared war on Lowlands

Canada has conquered xTarragona from Spain

Rumania has conquered xMardin from Turkey

Lowlands has declared war on Spain

Spain has conquered xGuarda from United States

Peace has been declared between Saudi Arabia and Egypt

Algeria has conquered xCairo from Egypt

Peace has been declared between United States and Spain

Southern Russia has conquered xUstinov from Central Russia

Czechoslovakia has conquered xSopron from Hungary

Morocco has declared war on Canada

Poland has conquered xRiga from Finland

Poland has conquered xValka from Finland

Peace has been declared between Lowlands and Czechoslovakia

Peace has been declared between Lowlands and Spain

[Predator]

Canada doesn't need to force peace he ceded the province of huesca to someone who did fp... Spanish aircraft cannot fly over huesca province so they cannot leave the city...
That in my opinion not in the spirit of ethical game play but a gross manipulation of circumventing what the fp order was intended for...
I'm over talking about it... Obviously the game manager has made his position clear and if no other Vic players care enough to speak up about it this will be my last posting on the subject...
I chose to not be a part of such tactics so I will just leave it at that and try to enjoy the game as it is intended

[We Are Irish!]

 

Canada doesn't need to force peace he ceded the province of huesca to someone who did fp...

Come on guy!

 

First you come in blazing your guns and accusing all of us of using a chain of unfair tactics. You stated several times that Canada also used the FP-DW-FP tactics and hinted that Ireland and GB did the same.

 

Then you are presented with some evidence, and change your story :-)

 

We are very close group of friends, taking this game as serious as you do. We prepared and conducted a large scale coordinated amph attack, we are fighting to the death in Spain & Portugal. Used diplomacy to save LoLa from the grave. Accepted two of Russes Special Customer Cases. And still you call us cheats, chickens and whatever.

 

Please crawl back under your rock and start playing Kerbal or something.....

 

[Mickey]

It is obvious that a lot of annoyance and hard feelings on both sides of the argument can be avoided in a very simple way: do not allow debt. Move the income and upkeep phase to the start of the turn and during the turn block any and all order that would drive the treasury below $0 in the same way that cargo requirement is checked during RN-orders or rail capacity during MCR-orders; order is over the budget, start reducing until it fits.

 

Putting the starting morale at 500 just makes people even more lazy, as there is absolutely NO excuse to EVER go structurally below zero... only happens if you spend more than you can afford, which is essentially always dependent on discretionary expenditures.

 

On the other side, it will stop people from using the FP-option unless someone is really beaten up, meaning people will be 'forced' to play this game as a multi-player wargame until someone gives up or is destroyed, not until the player can be side-tracked (and 'just making sure you are immune to their counter-attacks' -is- side-tracking, it's at the core of the DW-attack-FP problem and it's little sister, the conquer-and-cede situation).

 

No more limitless excessive spending, no more debilitating (to a player) tactics, more fair gameplay.

[Ali Tosis]

Micky

I am not playing this game

But I must point out your fallacy

Not allowing people to go into debt will only let the biggest group win.

Never again will a Country be able to hold out with only 1 city. awaiting his TA's hoped for relief.

If he cannot replace his divisions from multiple air strikes.

If your in all out war with multiple invading forces, the option to go into debt must become available.

You will see a lot more dropped positions sooner, when 4 countries invade, and all you can do is make LDB's and infantry with little income. It especially will affect countries that have to build ships.

[Mickey]

Ali,

 

your arguments are flawed for several reasons:

 

* when holding out in a major city, your income is pretty much covering what little production that city produces. Indeed you can't afford two divisions per turn on $600 income, but then you can't BUILD a division costing that much with just the production of that city. Less income correlates to less production. It also means a relative increase in maintenance costs, but that's why training and SCOL/SIOL, more than air force, is a sign of a royal spender.

 

* TA's can always chip in if they are serious about assisting a beleaguered group member. Treasury management on a TA-group scale is simply the principle of a huge country with some quantitative limitations on transferring funds, all about where you allocate your funds and where you don't.

 

* assuming you do not plan on being in the negative treasury the entire game (which is a surefire FP-invitation), going into negative treasury does NOT give you even a single $ extra to spend. It only allows you to spend some $ earlier. If you earn say $2000, you can either spend $2000 and be good continuously, or spend $3000 and later work your way up to zero by just spending $1000, in both cases you will have spent $4000 total, only difference being that you took a morale hit to spend some money EARLIER, not more. No american situations here where you simply raise the debt limit to allow more overspending, which is exactly what Predator suggests: allow people to go 500 points into the negative relative to the starting morale instead of just 150 into the negative. Nothing else would change, he would just rather see a higher debt limit. That doesn't solve the spending problem of people, it just delays it for a while.

 

 

So Ali, limiting the treasury doesn't stop smaller countries to play the game. It does limit their ability to withstand assault y unbridled overspending. More money will not increase his ability to hold out in a city, as $ were never the limiting factor, ARM-points produced in that city versus damage done by air strikes is the limiting factor.

[Ali Tosis]

But what if your all islands - GB Ireland Iceland - TA

Your playing on a roll of the dice.

You build into the red on the hope of gaining more.

Removing the ability to go into deficit make many scenarios redundant.

Reduces playability of some countries

[Mickey]

Ali,

 

in this game i play Iceland, and i played that without any TA's until turn 30, so i think i can speak on that.

 

Fact: it's never a problem to not spend money. You only need to accept that you need to make a budget:

 

1 SHIP output: $500 cost

1 ARM output: $ 50 cost

1 AIR output: $2 cost

 

Income: $3500

 

Conclusion: i cannot afford to have 5 shipyards ($2500) and 25 ARM-factories ($1250) running along with some building bases and stuff, so i need to scrap. I chose to scrap 10 ARM, bringing military output costs down to below $3500.

 

I have never gone into the red even for a single turn, simply for my last bullet above: it netts me NOTHING. I have (for some turns now) morale 999, around $4k treasury and an average treasury of $12.5k. And 300 air groups, and output of 5 SHIP continuously from turn 10 (4 before that), and NOT that many divisions. Just about making choices.

 

No TA's to give me money, no gamble scenarios (the scenario you describe is that of a gambler: borrow money in the hope of winning more), still a very feasable play. The only scenarios it makes redundant are EXACTLY the scenarios that now cause so much issues: the scenarios where people dive into the red, get caught before they are healthily back in the black (and healthy means not going red again as soon as you get a DW and lose some provinces) and suffer.

[We Are Irish!]

Well, Spain seemed to be a bit of a gambler.

 

Appearantly he didnt expect us to use Pred's tagline: strength does lie in a well planned offense :-)

 

Now he must "zit op de blaren" like my old fathers used to say :-D

[Mickey]

Yes and no, Irish.

 

As said before, the fact that USA could save his beachhead by forcing peace is entirely up to the financial management of that TA-group. I doubt anyone can find fault in USA taking this defensive measure.

 

Canada then ceding a province around an enmy airbase to him to prevent Mark from using it becomes a lot shadier. Not against the rules, but hardly what a FP is meant to effectuate. Shady, borderline, but not black.

 

The core problem comes when FP is used offensively, through the repeat DW-FP-DW, to gain territory, then shield your troops from coutner-attack by doing FP, the DW after the DPA succeeded and do rinse and repeat. This for two reasons: first it completely blocks a players ability to undertake any active/offensive measures, relegating the player to just building defenses and wait passively to see where he's struck next (sounds much like a computer player, no?). The second is that, even if just using that tactic to safeguard your own troops, you make sure that the opponent NEVER gets out of the negative, so NEVER can take an active role in the game again, no matter how healthy the country still is military-wise. You eliminate a PLAYER instead of a country. There is no way that a country can recuperate -25(dw)-60(FP)-5(BPA)=-90 morale per turn, even if his TA's gave him $10000 per turn to buy morale. It's simply game-mechanics-wise impossible.

[We Are Irish!]

Yes and no, Irish.

 

As said before, the fact that USA could save his beachhead by forcing peace is entirely up to the financial management of that TA-group. I doubt anyone can find fault in USA taking this defensive measure.

 

Canada then ceding a province around an enmy airbase to him to prevent Mark from using it becomes a lot shadier. Not against the rules, but hardly what a FP is meant to effectuate. Shady, borderline, but not black.

 

The core problem comes when FP is used offensively, through the repeat DW-FP-DW, to gain territory, then shield your troops from coutner-attack by doing FP, the DW after the DPA succeeded and do rinse and repeat. This for two reasons: first it completely blocks a players ability to undertake any active/offensive measures, relegating the player to just building defenses and wait passively to see where he's struck next (sounds much like a computer player, no?). The second is that, even if just using that tactic to safeguard your own troops, you make sure that the opponent NEVER gets out of the negative, so NEVER can take an active role in the game again, no matter how healthy the country still is military-wise. You eliminate a PLAYER instead of a country. There is no way that a country can recuperate -25(dw)-60(FP)-5(BPA)=-90 morale per turn, even if his TA's gave him $10000 per turn to buy morale. It's simply game-mechanics-wise impossible.

 

And like we told before, we didnt use the repeat DW-FP-DW on Spain. The world events can prove that!

[Mickey]

 

Yes and no, Irish.

 

As said before, the fact that USA could save his beachhead by forcing peace is entirely up to the financial management of that TA-group. I doubt anyone can find fault in USA taking this defensive measure.

 

Canada then ceding a province around an enmy airbase to him to prevent Mark from using it becomes a lot shadier. Not against the rules, but hardly what a FP is meant to effectuate. Shady, borderline, but not black.

 

The core problem comes when FP is used offensively, through the repeat DW-FP-DW, to gain territory, then shield your troops from coutner-attack by doing FP, the DW after the DPA succeeded and do rinse and repeat. This for two reasons: first it completely blocks a players ability to undertake any active/offensive measures, relegating the player to just building defenses and wait passively to see where he's struck next (sounds much like a computer player, no?). The second is that, even if just using that tactic to safeguard your own troops, you make sure that the opponent NEVER gets out of the negative, so NEVER can take an active role in the game again, no matter how healthy the country still is military-wise. You eliminate a PLAYER instead of a country. There is no way that a country can recuperate -25(dw)-60(FP)-5(BPA)=-90 morale per turn, even if his TA's gave him $10000 per turn to buy morale. It's simply game-mechanics-wise impossible.

 

And like we told before, we didnt use the repeat DW-FP-DW on Spain. The world events can prove that!

 

"Yet"...

 

We'll see... DW-FP is there, i can't see Lowlands going anywhere else but to Spain again so i expect to see the cycle completed, but if he suddenly decides to wage war on me, that's fine.

[Lord of the Libyans]

We'll see... DW-FP is there, i can't see Lowlands going anywhere else but to Spain again so i expect to see the cycle completed, but if he suddenly decides to wage war on me, that's fine.

 

I don’t like someone taking the moral high ground when he does not deserve it. So I did some digging, and would like to present to you Mickey as the judge and expert on DW-FP-BPA matters the following facts and evidence.

It’s about game 80. A game the current block I’m in played and in which Germany was one of the members.

 

In that game Predator played Portugal, in a (winning) team with Algeria, Spain, Tunisia and the United States.

Check: http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=2096&p=48745

 

On turn 33 Predator learns Germany has gone bankrupt

http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1573&p=38809

 

Later he hints at his plans:

http://www.rollingthunderforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1573&p=38894

 

These are the relevant messages from the Political activities and general intelligence section of Germanies turnsheets. I’ll let them speak for themselves.

 

34

Algeria has declared war on your nation

Tunisia has declared war on your nation

Spain has forced peace upon your nation

United States has declared war on your nation

35

United States has forced peace upon your nation

36

Iceland has forced peace upon your nation

United States has broken its political agreement with your nation

Algeria has forced peace upon your nation

37

Tunisia has forced peace upon your nation

Great Britain has forced peace upon your nation

United States has declared war on your nation

38

Great Britain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

United States has forced peace upon your nation

39

Great Britain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

40

Portugal has declared war on your nation

41

Tunisia has broken its political agreement with your nation

Spain has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

Portugal has forced peace upon your nation

Portugal has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

42

Spain has broken its political agreement with your nation

43

Tunisia has declared war on your nation

Portugal has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

44

Portugal has broken its political agreement with your nation

United States has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

45

Spain has declared war on your nation

Spain has conquered Mannheim ( 4 points of national morale were lost)

Spain has conquered Saarbrucken ( 6 points of national morale were lost)

Spain has conquered Freiburg ( 2 points of national morale were lost)

Spain has conquered Goppingen ( 5 points of national morale were lost)

Portugal has declared war on your nation

46

Algeria has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

Spain has conquered Augsburg ( 3 points of national morale were lost)

Spain has forced peace upon your nation

United States has broken its political agreement with your nation

47

Portugal has forced peace upon your nation

Sweden has forced peace upon your nation

48

-

49

Algeria has attempted to break its political agreement with your nation

50

-

51

Portugal has broken its political agreement with your nation

52

-

53

United States has declared war on your nation

Algeria has broken its political agreement with your nation

Algeria has declared war on your nation

54

Spain has declared war on your nation

Spain has conquered xAugsburg (1 point of national morale was lost)

Spain has conquered xFreiburg (1 point of national morale was lost)

55/56/57

-

58

Portugal has declared war on your nation

59/60/61/62

-

67

Portugal has forced peace upon your nation

[Mickey]

Yup, that looks like the same bullshit to me.

 

Read the thread for about 10 pages into the FP-DW-cycle, and i must say Von Manstein remained very cavalier under those conditions.

 

 

Remove debt-ability and all this shit is no longer possible. Up to then, the only way to keep the players in the game at a fair level is to treat your treasury responsible and not use the repeat-FP, lest you get this pulp.